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InnleggSkrevet: 09 Apr 2014 22:07 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
Innlegg: 21
I had undertaken research on Asa Ulfsdatter's Parentage. The main reason was due to the annoyance by reading other articles or part thereof pertaining to Asa Ulfsdatter. I will briefly address my concerns here, since I found other internet locations to do so. I may present a copy of a brief summary on my findings.

But first, lets address statements made pertaining to Arnstein Ulfson. The NST/F throws around the word scientific.

The articles state that there was only one Arnstein Ulfson mentioned from 1363 to 1419. Being a sibling to Asa Ulfsdatter eliminates any possible connection Asa Ulfsdatter would have to Jon Haftorson.

Here is science:

The following numbers used are approximate. You can play with the numbers as desired.

Lets say Arnstein Ulfson was born in 1339. That places him at age 24 in 1363 (reasonable). That would also place him at age 80 in 1419. In all probability he would have been in his 90s in 1419.

During the 14th and 15th centuries the life expectancy was 30 years. That breaks down to half of the human population could expect to live at least to the age of 30 or more. If a person during that era lived to age 20, then that person could rightfully hope to live for another 43 years. This brings the total probable life span to the mid-60s. There was much less than a 1% chance of any person during that era to live to the age of 80 or more. Therefore, there was more than a 99% chance that the Arnstein Ulfson mentioned in 1363 was not the same Arnstein Ulfson mentioned in 1419.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 11:39 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
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You use Åsa Ulfsdatter in the subject line, but the main part of your statement deals with Anstein Ulfsson, so allow me to state the present resarch status on Åsa Ulfsdatter before adressing your statement on Anstein:

1) Åsa Ulfsdatter is mentioned only once in the Medieval sources. The diploma connects her to husband Olav Torsteinsson and son/sons-in-law Sigurd Sjøfarsson, Erik Olavsson and Tormod Eivindsson. We know nothing about her parents or possible siblings.

2) Arne Lund published in 1951 an hypothesis in which Anstein Ulfsson mentioned in 1363, 1405 and 1419 was the brother of Åsa Ulfsdotter. I agree with you that the Anstein Ulfsson mentioned in 1363 possibly could not be a grandchild of Jon Haftorsson.

3) Lund's reasons for his hypothesis is the common patronym and the fact that Olav Torsteinsson and Anstein Ulfsson are both mentioned in the 1419 diploma and in a way that can indicate some kind of relationship between the two of them. We do not know for certain whether the two Olav Torsteinsson's are one and the same person. If they are, Lund states that it is very likely so that Olav's wife Åsa was Ansteins sister. I have myself argued against this hypotheses, claiming that it is just as likely that this Olav himself was related one way or the other to Anstein Ulfsson.

4) Anstein is a rare name in the Norwegian middle ages. Ulf is not a rare name, but it is not very common. The combination of the two is rather unique. Rather unique is not the same as unique. We have other examples of rare names being used in one family only, relatives being renamed after the original bearer. Thus, Anstein Ulfsson can be one and the same in all three letters. It can also be uncle and nephew. In theory they could also be grandfather and grandson.

5) What you refer to as science, is actually only playing with numbers. We do know that average life expectancy was a lot shorter in the Medieval Ages than today. That was mainly, though not only, due to poor health conditions and lack of effective means to cure diseases. Child mortality rates were extremely high measured with modern standards. Relatively few survived childhood. Women gave birth to more children, but in most families only a few of the children survived to become grown ups. Those who did, could be rather long lived. People who turned 60, 70 or even 80 still had a life expectancy of more years to live. And quite a few lived to 80 and more. Thus, even though the chances to live to 80 was rather small, some did. Your statistics neither proves nor disproves that the Anstein Ulfsson in 1363 and 1419 was one and the same. We have examples of men being on top of the Norwegian society for 50 years or more. One such example is Gaut Jonsson who was allready a lendmann (equivalent of the later barons) in 1217 and still an active participant in Royal missions abroad in 1266.

6) It is also a good possibility that Anstein was mentioned both in 1363 and 1419 without reaching the age of 80. I urge you to reread and to reanalyze the 1419 diploma. You may end up with some rather surprising new ideas of his state and his age.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 16:50 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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I will address your comments based on your number listing.

1. Asa Ulfsdatter's parents are not proven. There is no proof. As for your comments on Asa Ulfsdatter only being mentioned once (1433), that is true. So, it must also be stated that Asa Ulfsdatter's rank status is not known. She could have been at the high-end of nobility or at a lower end. It is not and never will be known.

2. An hypothesis is simply what it is. If one believes that there was only one Arnstein Ulfson, one must believe that he was not Asa Ulfsdatter's brother. If one believes that there were two men named Arnstein Ulfson, one must believe a strong probability that Arnstein (mentioned in 1419) and Asa were siblings.

3. Obviously, there was a relationship between Oluf Thorsteinson and Arnstein Ulfson mentioned in 1419. Do we need to degrade ourselves by explaining the obvious relationship? It may not be proven that it was the same Oluf Thorsteinson, but there sure is a very strong probability since the many known Ulsdatters/Ulfson involvement. There is a strong level of certainty (not proof) that Asa and Anstein were siblings. The information in the 1419 diploma tells the story. Yes, it is open to interpretation.

4. The name Arnstein only being mentioned a few times in diplomas, in or of itself, does not dictate a rarity. It was possibly rare amongst the nobility were the medieval times. The name Ulf was not a common name. Rarity is open to interpretation. It can be many things, but the focus needs to be on the level of probability.

5. Scientists play with numbers every day. Your calculation on it being the same Arnstein Ulfson is playing with numbers. The reasons behind a shorter life expectancy/span in the medieval times are irrelevant to this discussion, however, I accept your right to state them. My statistics may not prove there were two Arnstein Ulfsons, but it would be foolish to believe that there was only one. The odds are too slight with more than a 99% probability that there were two. You state that quite a few lived to age 80 or more. It would be interesting in knowing your definition on quite a few. Can you prove that there were quite a few? Today, approximately half of the Norwegians will live to age 80 or more. That is quite a few. As for your comments on Gaut Jonsson , you assume that it was the same man over all of those years. You have no proof.

6. In 1363, Arnstein Ulfson would be an adult. Surely you agree.It would be very safe to place his minimum age at 20. There would place him at age 76 in 14Age 76 was a rarity. You can play with the numbers all day, but at the end of the day it remains a fact that there was more than a 99% probability that there were two Arnstein Ulfsons.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 16:55 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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I was going to correct some spelling errors, but I think you can get it.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 17:08 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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There are 3 groups: historians, genealogists, and researchers.

Historians mainly focus on interpretation. Interpretation in many cases come down to opinion. Look at the Norwegian couple discovering a Viking settlement in North America. Thankfully, they ignored the interpretation of many others. Many others told this couple that they were wrong in their focus. This couple, apparently, were not hindered by the lack of proof. They focused on certainty. It was certainty, not proof, that led to the discovery of a Viking settlement in North America.

Genealogists are literal. They will accept all text material at face value. To use one example: in many countries today many surname spellings are the result of the opinion/assumption of a priest/minister of a church during his recording of a birth, baptism, marriage, or death.

Researchers fasten themselves in their vehicle and travel into the depths. They are aware that if they want complete comprehension they must at times turn left or right off of the main route for the opportunity to explore not only the main route but also the subsidiaries.

Now, keep in mind that the couple that discovered a Viking settlement in North America focused on certainty.

My research on Asa Ulfsdatter was focused on certainty, not proof.

For those with interest in Asa Ulfsdatter, here is the bottom line. If you accept that Asa Ulfsdatter, Arnstein Ulfson, and Olaf Ulfson were siblings, then, you must accept that their father was Ulf Holmgeirson. If you do not accept that the three were siblings, then, you must accept that approximately half of the men named Ulf in Norway had family in Onsoy and/or other ties to Onsoy. Focus on my words, I said men named Ulf in Norway.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 21:49 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
Innlegg: 117
1) Not quite true. The 1433 diploma is about a probate and the list of items contained in the diploma can tell us a whole lot about Åsa's rank and status. She was neither at the high-end nor at the lowest end.

2) If there was only one Anstein, he was not Åsa's brother. If there were two - or more - one could, but wouldn't have to be a sibling. We will never know if it was one or two Ansteins. or - to use your words: It is not and never will be known.

3) I agree - it was obviously a relationship, though not necessarily a blood relation. Again - it is a possibility that Åsa and Anstein were siblings, not a strong level of certainty.

4) Anstein was rare, Ulv relatively common - see Vågslid Norderlendske fyrenamn.

5) We can easily prove that it was the same Gaut Jonsson.

6) I agree that Anstein was an adult in 1363, surely more than 20, easily 25-30, perhaps more. We simply don't know, but adult for sure. Still, he didn't have to reach the age of 80. Not even 70 - and with that buff, your 99 % likelihood vanishes.


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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Apr 2014 23:50 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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1. The 1433 diploma mentions chattels and shall we say money. The story tells of a female from a medium-to-higher- nobility. How many females during that time period owned anything? Males dominated ownerships. Female ownership was generally through inheritance. The fact that she was mentioned speaks for itself.

2. The relationship between Asa and Arnstein is not proven, but there is a high level of certainty that they were siblings.

3. A very strong level of certainty.

4. Please remain with one point. Was Ulf relatively common or not very common? Your statements are becoming contradictory.

5. Easy to say that it can be proven. More difficult to prove it. You can not prove it. You can use interpretation, assumption, and opinions, but no proof.

6. "easily 25-30". Thank you for validating my scientific statement. Lets use your words. That would place Arnstein Ulfson at the age of 81 to 86 in 1419. At least I left a very slight possibility. You have eliminated any possibility that there was only one Arnstein Ulfson. Here is the percentage of your age calculation: 0.000000000.................

Your statement: " Still, he didn't have to reach the age of 80. Not even 70". Sorry, but more contradictions. I respectfully state that I am finding it difficult to continue this discussion with your various contradictions. Using your words, if Arnstein Ulfson was not 70 in 1419, then he would have been born no earlier than 1350. Was he only 13 years old in 1363? You state that he would easily be 25-30 in 1363.

I have lots more to post, but I will hold back until I see where this discussion will go. I respectfully say that to date this discussion with you is a waste of time. Too many contradictions and ill-statements.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 09:00 

Registrert: 28 Okt 2012 23:38
Innlegg: 187
Members and participants,

It may be pertinent to inform the readers of this original and existing thread of the spin-off discussion started here (URL): http://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/19048 ... -research/

Without adding to much speculation, it is fair to assume that the "Richard" initiating this discussion is identical to "J R Olsen" in the linked discussion. We are presently waiting for "Richard" to identify himself properly in this discussion. This in order to validate whether or not he will prove to be a serious contributor to knowledge-based Medieval Genealogy.

I'd like to take the opportunity to remind all participants of the need to be diligent about providing actual and sustainable proof when posting statements.

Are S. Gustavsen
Moderator


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 09:11 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
Innlegg: 117
1) You don't seem to know that much about the Norwegian society in the Medieval Ages, but I'll do my best to enlighten you a wee bit. Norwegian women had a much freer position in society than in most other European places at the time. She had the right to own and the right to inherit. When married, her husband had as head of the household a right to dispose also over her property, but he could do no major dispositions over her property without her consent. As a widow she held full authority. Thus, your assumption here is false. Most Norwegian women at that time period owned something - some more and others less. Thus, by comparing the list of chattels in the 1433 diploma to similar lists in other diplomas we can get a pretty good picture of her economic status and her rank, quite the oposite of what you stated in your second statement here. Since the diploma lists chattels only, we will also face the basic question of whether she owned real estate or not. Why wasn't Elline mentioned in the diploma if that was supposed to be her property?

2 and 3) here we disagree - and will continue to do so. You have neither proof nor indications for your assumptions. The assumptions cannot be substaniated and the value of them is comparatively low.

4) My statements don't contradict, they develop. I was a bit more carefull in my assessment before consulting Vågslid's book. You should do so yourself. The book leaves little doubt about the frequency of the name Ulf.

5) Again you prove your lack of knowledge about Norway in the Medieval Ages. This is a simple matter of protocol. Protocol makes it simple to follow a man's career ower decades. There is no doubt that this is the same man in top positions for 50+ years.

6) I think you have completely misunderstood important parts of the 1419 diploma. I've asked you once before to reread and reanalyze it. Hopefully you will then realize why Anstein could easily be 25-30 in 1363, still be the same Anstein Ulfson in the 1419 diploma, though never reaching the age of 70 himself. This is, of course, theory only. We don't know how old he was or if it was one ore two persons of that name. That question will never be answered.

That much about Anstein. But there are a few things that puzzle me when it comes to your logic - or lack of such. I hope you can answer my questions:

1) Why is it so that Åsa Ulfsdotter has to be a sister of Anstein Ulfsson AND Olaf Ulfsson? What is the role of Olaf Ulfsson here, and what is that brings him, but none of the other Ulfssons or -daughters in the area into this picture?

2) If we were to make contrafactual assumptions, as you do, why is it so that Åsa's father has to be Ulf Holmgeirsson? Why him an why not any of the other, some even higher ranking, Ulfs who have a lot stronger connections to Onsøy than what is known about Ulf Holmgeirsson?


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 16:46 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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1. Thank you for proving my points. I am no expert at medieval times, but I know enough to have a comprehension. I am aware of women's rights during that era. Obviously, I can see by the diplomas that women purchased and inherited land. It is also clear who purchased/inherited land, in terms of rank.

"Most Norwegian women at that time period owned something ". I would like proof that MOST women at that time period owned something. Please direct me to the primary sources so that I can see that MOST women owned something. It is never wise to make a blanket statement.

One can not intellectually compare the items mentioned in the probate pertaining to Asa Ulfsdatter with any other diploma. Again, it comes down to interpretation. My experiences have led me to realize the full complexity of textual recordings. Before I continue on this I will return to the 1433 diploma.

2. Again, interpretation. Experience dictates that the value is high. It is nothing more than your opinion that it is low. You have no proof nor logical explanation. Being honest and respectful, it comes down to my experiences as a researcher and your interpretations as a historian.

To eliminate nonsense and get to the main problem I will go to #6.

"Anstein could easily be 25-30 in 1363, still be the same Anstein Ulfson in the 1419 diploma, though never reaching the age of 70 himself"

Again I will break it down. If Arnstein was 25-30 years of age in 1363, then he would have been born 1333-1338. In 1419, he would be 81-86 years of age. Where do you get that Arnstein could not reach the age of 70 in 1419? I refuse to continue this discussion with you until you provide a satisfactory explanation for this nonsense. I am not here to waste my time.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 17:31 

Registrert: 31 Okt 2012 10:41
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The relevant document from 1419:
http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1781&s=n&str=

Why do you conclude that Anstein Ulfsson is recently deceased when the document is written?


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 18:35 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
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I congratulate Sigmund for instantly seeing what the blind man doesn't see.

No wonder that Richard gets mixed up in statistical errors as long as he keeps adding years to a long deceased corpus.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 18:59 

Registrert: 24 Okt 2012 18:17
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As I have understood it, Lars-Olof Larsson's thesis from 1964 killed the chances of Åsa being a daughter of Ulf Holmgeirsson based on information around his inheritance?


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:15 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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Alright, you want to play that game. Lets play. According to Lars Loberg comments, Arnstein Ulfson would have died prior to the year 1400. Is it reasonable to believe that his land laid dormant for approximately 20 years before someone laid a claim to it? Where was Arnstein's wife? More importantly, what about the Arnstein Ulfson mentioned in 1407(?)? If you want to go with Arnstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419, then you have to agree that there were 2 men named Arnstein Ulfson. Now, lets take this to Asa Ulfsdatter. If you want to play that game then you must accept that Asa Ulfsdatter may have died prior to 1433 and there was a settlement of her land prior to 1433. Perhaps 1433 was a formality to clear up remaining items.

As for the comment on Lars Olof Larsen, he ASSUMED that Cecilia Jonsdatter's land was inherited by her brother's grandchildren because they owned it in 1469 (58 years after Cecilia died...or did she die then? Lars Olof Larsen proved nothing.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:38 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
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If I want to go with Anstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419? What do you mean? The 1419 diploma would have been impossible if he hadn't been dead years earlier. You just wouldn't see it, even though it was there in front of you all the time.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:39 

Registrert: 23 Okt 2012 21:42
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If I want to go with Anstein Ulfson being dead prior to 1419? What do you mean? The 1419 diploma would have been impossible if he hadn't been dead years earlier. You just wouldn't see it, even though it was there in front of you all the time.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:46 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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I will reply for you to my last post.

For your convenience you will state that Arnstein Ulfson was alive in 1407 and sold land. He died soon thereafter. And you will conveniently state that Arnstein Ulfson lived to a nice age of 69. Therefore, you have proven that there was only one Arnstein Ulfson. That is a neat possibility. But, where was Arnstein Ulfson's wife and daughter. The wife may have died prior to 1419. Would the protocol not dictate that there would be an inheritance by the daughter. Why were 3 men involved with land owned by Arnstein Ulfson in 1419? Why that specific time period? Why them?

Lars Loberg, I respected your request to re-visit the 1433 diploma. I did. Now, I respectfully request that you re-visit that same 1433 diploma, studied it carefully, and then study other diplomas either as a whole or as a sample. I urge you to engage yourself in learning the importance of the subsidiaries to your research and how to properly utilize said subsidiaries.

I respect you as a historian, but you are not quite there yet as a researcher.

I wish all people the best in their genealogical journeys.

This is my last post on this forum. You may be able to locate me on other forums.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:49 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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I missed Lars Loberg's last comment, so I reply before logging out for good.

No, not necessarily dead for years. You need to end your blanket statements. They do not serve you well.


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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Apr 2014 19:53 

Registrert: 09 Apr 2014 16:58
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Can't seem to leave.

Ok, Lars Loberg, lets say they must be dead for years. Then, you have no choice but to agree that Asa Ulfsdatter may have been dead for years giving a possibility/probability that there was a land settlement prior to 1433 but no records of it existing today.


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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Apr 2014 10:56 

Registrert: 28 Okt 2012 23:38
Innlegg: 187
Members,

Since the initiator ("Richard") of this discussion seems to be rather unwilling to identify himself (herself?) properly instead of abiding by the forum rules, I see no other options but to issue a warning that this topic will be locked down within 24 hours unless proper identification of said initiator is done.

There shall be no room for tolerating pseudo-academic ranting where one participant rests his or her arguments solely on misrepresentation unduly suppressing other participants.

Hence, the initiator is hereby asked to state his or her true identity or remain shamefully silent.

Are S. Gustavsen
Moderator


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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Apr 2014 15:15 

Registrert: 19 Nov 2012 20:27
Innlegg: 139
I wholeheartedly concur with the moderator's suggestion of 12/4. The initiator has shown himself blatantly ignorant of historical research and scientific method as well. I cannot see that he has anything wortwhile to contribute to the problem of Åsa Ulvsdatter's origins and genealogy. Lars Løberg's response is most apt. By the way, is not this forum intended to be in Norwegian language?

Geirr I. Leistad


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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Apr 2014 16:31 
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Registrert: 27 Apr 2012 16:01
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Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
By the way, is not this forum intended to be in Norwegian language?


Forumreglene sier bare dette om språk:

«Så langt som det er mulig, skal du svare på samme språk som debattstarter. Hvis du er usikker på dine språkferdigheter, kan du sende innlegget inn på norsk og be om at noen andre oversetter. Dansk og svensk er unntatt herfra.»

Det er altså fullt tillatt å skrive på andre språk enn norsk, selv om det naturligvis er en fordel å benytte et språk som andre deltakere behersker. Det må antas at de fleste deltakerne her til en viss grad behersker engelsk.

I do not find it meaningful to translate this, as I consider it as a prerequisite that participants in this forum understand some basic written Norwegian.


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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Apr 2014 20:31 

Registrert: 19 Nov 2012 20:27
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Konsekvensen av forumets språkregler må vel da bli at dersom jeg starter en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk, må debattantene svare på samme språk? Jeg vil foreslå at reglene endres dithen at et av de skandinaviske språkene kan aksepteres og at debattantene står fritt til å benytte sitt skandinaviske morsmål. Det må vel også forutsettes de som er seriøst opptatt av skandinavisk middelaldergenealogi, dessuten er så noenlunde fortrolig med språket i kildene - i det minste norrønt og mellomnorsk, om ikke akkurat lavtysk eller latin. Det kan vel gjøres unntak om noen av gode grunner velger å fremme en konkret problemstilling eller komme med et spørsmål på et fremmedspråk som nordmenn flest formodes å beherske?

Salve, Geirr


Sist endret av Geirr I. Leistad den 14 Apr 2014 21:54, endret 2 ganger.

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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Apr 2014 20:59 
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Registrert: 27 Apr 2012 16:01
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Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
Konsekvensen av forumets språkregler må vel da bli at dersom jeg starter en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk, må debattantene svare på samme språk?

Slik jeg ser det, står det enhver fritt å starte «en debatt på fx akkadisk, sanskrit eller gotisk», men jeg tror ikke det vil komme særlig mange svar. Dermed begrenser språkvalget seg selv uten at vi trenger å lage noe stivbent regelverk rundt det. Det bør etter min mening være legitimt å poste på engelsk, som de fleste i Norge med en smule utdannelse behersker noenlunde brukbart.

Geirr I. Leistad skrev:
Jeg vil foreslå at reglene endres dithen at et av de skandinaviske språkene kan aksepteres og at debattantene står fritt til å benytte sitt skandinviske morsmål.

Forumreglene ble i hovedtrekk skrevet av NSFs leder Rune Nedrud, og en såvidt drastisk endring i politikken som du foreslår bør eventuelt komme som resultat av et vedtak i NSFs styre.


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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Apr 2014 11:09 

Registrert: 28 Okt 2012 23:38
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All,

"Richard" aka "J R Olsen" has been engaged in an adjacent discussion at Digitalarkivet, mostly created as a spin-off from this thread. The discussion overheated several times and was right now closed for further discussion. Although somewhat stained by many off-topic outbursts, several interesting points has been presented during the time the discussion was kept alive. The most important contribution was made by Anita Holck through her presentation of certain Swedish sources in posting #56: http://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/19048 ... rch/page-5

I have posted a question/challenge in posting #80, that I wish to transfer to this forum. I'll create a separate discussion for that purpose alone, most probably in Norwegian.

Thanks,

Are


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